From: Alyssa Ross <hi@alyssa.is>
To: 7c6f434c@mail.ru, discuss@spectrum-os.org
Cc: aaron@ajanse.me, puck@puckipedia.com, talex5@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Proxying Wayland for untrusted clients
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 17:22:07 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87eedyznsw.fsf@alyssa.is> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1lkUDz-0006pI-Pa.7c6f434c-mail-ru@smtp33.i.mail.ru>
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Michael Raskin <7c6f434c@mail.ru> writes:
>>>>One of the benefits that Wayland is supposed to have over X11 is
>>>>security. A Wayland application isn't supposed to be able to record the
>>>>screen without user permission, for example. But in most compositors,
>>>>it can, with no restrictions. Existing Wayland compositors are
>>>
>>> … and theoretically, an X server could feed empty capture to a client it
>>> does not like …
>>>
>>> (of course with literal decades of actual backwards compatibility, X11
>>> protocol has accumulated enough extensions that assigning permissions
>>> to all of them might be somewhat painful)
>>
>>Considering that the world has convered on a single X server
>>implementation, and it's apparently pretty horrible to maintain, I'm not
>>sure I feel very positive about the idea of a custom one!
>
> Considering how much works fine in Xvnc which kind of lacks half the
> extensions, and considering that all the bad hardware stuff now needs to
> be handled in each compositor, it is unclear how much worse it would
> actually be.
>
> So OpenGL-first design sounds like the real reason for all the mess.
What do you mean by bad hardware stuff? Most hardware should be handled
by KMS and libinput, shouldn't it?
>>> … unsurprisingly, as these are typically WM teams who are now deprived
>>> of what Xorg server did for everyone.
>>
>>Only the ones that don't use wlroots, I think. wlroots has its own
>>problems, but in large part those are the problems we're trying to
>>mitigate here.
>
> Yes, but it seems memory-unsafe even by the «careful C» standards, and
> it seems to crash noticeably often with reasonably well-behaved clients,
> so just a protocol compliance filter would not be enough.
My experience with wlroots has been that when it crashes, it's because
of quirks with monitor state and stuff, not anything from the Wayland
protocol. Have you had a different experience?
Another thing the proxy would be really cool for that I didn't mention
before is debugging. Potentially you could even record and replay
Wayland messages, which would help with any crash that was from Wayland.
>>>>To solve these problems, I propose a proxy program that sits between
>>>>Wayland clients and the compositor, in the same privelege domain as the
>>>>compositor. The proxy would decode and re-encode every Wayland request
>>>>(client->compositor message), and would discard any request it didn't
>>>>understand. This would mitigate the problem of a large, privileged
>>>>program written in a memory-unsafe language being exposed to untrusted
>>>
>>> Presumably, also validating that the shared memory buffers passed around
>>> have the same size and protection as promised?
>>
>>Aren't shared memory buffers usually handed out by the compositor, to
>>the client? IIRC this was the reason virtio wayland can work when it
>>only supports shared memory that was allocated by the host.
>
> Looks like for wl_shm the client creates and shm object and sends FD to
> the server, then both sides mmap from there. Given that one could cook
> an FD with approximately arbitrary combination of properties, I guess
> some care should be taken about this, too.
Hmm, yes, looks like you're right. I wonder how virtio wayland can work
the way it does, then... But yes, that is something we could validate.
>>>>no support in the Wayland protocol. It could even be used to modify
>>>>surfaces, to implement things like Qubes-style unspoofable coloured
>>>>window borders.
>>>
>>> I am tempted to ask how close it will be to providing a socket for WM
>>> and window decorator implementation (with some suitably limited
>>> compositor as the backend behind the proxy).
>>>
>>> (So basically, defining a scope will be hard, and defining a scope in
>>> a usefully extensible way might be even harder)
>>
>>I don't understand this point. Can you rephrase / expand?
>
> Well, you start describing a proxy that is basically «only valid
> messages pass» and that's it, then add that it could also implement some
> more functionality. Then you say plugins for policy-heavy functionality.
> (I guess at that point the natural next step is a socket so that
> safety-handling and user logic could be in different processes)
>
> This sounds like a recipe for scope creep, although it might also be
> good as a single well-vetted Thing being safety-critical and a lot of
> policy decisions being pushed to restartable and
> functionality-restricted separate processes is actually better than the
> current recommended approach to Wayland compositors.
>
> If you want to try pushing the project to freedesktop, I suspect it is
> a good idea to define how much scope you want to include into the pitch.
> Although apparently they don't have any objections to hosting software
> with heavy scope creep, when reaching for a high profile, it is a good
> idea to set internal expectations before having to manage external ones.
I actually think the scope is fairly limited?
1. Receive request
2. Validate request
3. Asynchronously run request through plugins (you're right that
external processes are probably a better idea, although I worry about
complexity and performance).
4. Forward request to compositor
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-05-22 17:22 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 11+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-05-22 13:05 Alyssa Ross
2021-05-22 13:45 ` Michael Raskin
2021-05-22 15:08 ` Alyssa Ross
2021-05-22 16:18 ` Michael Raskin
2021-05-22 17:22 ` Alyssa Ross [this message]
2021-05-22 18:48 ` Aaron Janse
2021-05-22 20:00 ` Michael Raskin
2021-05-22 17:13 ` Jean-Philippe Ouellet
2021-05-25 11:40 ` Alyssa Ross
2021-05-22 17:52 Josh DuBois
2021-05-22 20:05 ` Michael Raskin
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